Pundit Review Radio: Gay marriage in Massachusetts
Tonight we will be hosting a debate between the leading pro and anti gay marriage groups in Massachusetts.
We will be speaking with Kris Mineau, the President of Massachusetts Family Institute. His organization is trying to get a ballot initiative passed that would ban gay marriage in Massachusetts.
From the other side of the issue, we are pleased to welcome Marc Solomon, Political Director for Mass Equality, a group that supports same sex marriage and opposes to the ballot initiative.
We look forward to a civil debate on the issues at hand. This is a rare opportunity to hear from the leading advocates from both sides. You may even be surprised at what your hosts have to say on this topic.
You can join the discussion by streaming the show live at WRKO at 9pm EST and you can call in with questions at 877-469-4322.
About Pundit Review Radio
Pundit Review Radio is where the old media meets the new. Each week Kevin & Gregg give voice to the work of the most influencial thought leaders in the new media/citizen journalist movement. This unique show brings the best of the blogs to your radio every Sunday evening at 9pm EST on AM680 WRKO, Bostonâ??s Talk Leader.
October 30th, 2005 at 11:37 pm
First off Kevin, marriage in not about equality. Marriage is about setting norms for society for how we structure sexual relationships, for creating cooperative and respectful domestic relationships between the sexes,and for forming families for raising children. Marriage is always about bringing forth the next generation and this can be done only via heterosexual behaviours. It is funny how the homosexual community has to fall back on heterosexual behavior when it comes to ‘making’ children. It seems that the ’soap box’ of ‘equal rights’ has no justification or clout because it involves more than homosexual dependent behaviours or lifestyles.
There are thousands of definitive studies showing motherless and fatherless families limit every important measure of children’s physical,psychological,emotional and intellectual development. I had these studies posted earlier but they seemed to have mysteriously disapeared.?? So my question to you Kevin is where is it said that children who are raised in same sex families are healthy on a physical,psychological,emotional and intellectual basis as compared to those children who have a mother and a father?
October 31st, 2005 at 9:46 pm
Michael,
Thanks for the post. I certainly agree that the ideal situation to raise a child is when a loving, committed, attentive husband and wife raise the child together. That is ideal. That is the best, but not only, way it can be done effectively, IMHO. As for the studies showing difficulties in single parent households, and the impact on kids, what are the other factors besides being raised by a single parent? Were the single parents teenagers? Unemployed or uneducated? Poor with no real hope or direction? Abused women? Who knows what went into these studies. That is a point I tried make last night and I did a terrible job of it. Studies are like polls, they can say whatever you need them to. None of the studies you or Gregg cited last night were studies of gays in committed, long-term relationships, which is what we were talking about last night. Citing studies about how promiscuous gays are in the Netherlands is entirely unpersuasive to me on the issue of committed same-sex couples, in the United States. Sorry, that’s just how I feel.
One point I tried to make last night is the fact that, to me, it is more important to have quality people who love and care for the kids, who spend the time required and attends to their needs. Those are the qualities that make a good parent, not who you are sleeping with.
You asked me to answer the following, “where is it said that children who are raised in same sex families are healthy on a physical,psychological,emotional and intellectual basis”
Here is why I don’t like studies in debates. Because I can point you to the US Deppartment of Health and Human Service web site to read studies that say the following,
“Courts have expressed concern that children raised by gay and lesbian parents may have difficulties with their personal and psychological development, self-esteem, and social and peer relationships. Because of this concern, researchers have focused on children’s development in gay and lesbian families.
The studies conclude that children of gay or lesbian parents are no different than their counterparts raised by heterosexual parents. In “Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents,” a 1992 article in Child Development, Charlotte Patterson states, “Despite dire predictions about children based on well-known theories of psychosocial development, and despite the accumulation of a substantial body of research investigating these issues, not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents.”
Psychiatrist Laurintine Fromm, of the Institute of Pennsylvania Hospital, agrees with that finding. “[The] literature…does not indicate that these children fare any worse [than those of heterosexual parents] in any area of psychological development or sexual identity formation. A parent’s capacity to be respectful and supportive of the child’s autonomy and to maintain her own intimate attachments, far outweighs the influence of the parent’s sexual orientation alone.”
http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm
Anyone can point to studies. What I will point to are the thousands of well adjusted kids out there who were raised by gay parents. Those aren’t stats, they are people. People who know through experience that the quality of the person doing the child raising is far, far more important that the sexual preference of the parent.
I’ve tried to answer you as openly and honestly as possible. I appreciate the fact that you called last night and posted. I hope you keep this conversation, and others, going in the future.
Regards,
Kevin
November 1st, 2005 at 6:38 pm
Kevin, let me try and clarify what I was trying to say about the â??studies of gays in committed, long-term relationshipsâ?ť which is what we were talking about, amongst other issues, on Sunday night. I can almost understand were you are coming from when you talk about how studies can give results that are biased. This may be true, but you must look at how the medical community strictly depends on these scientific studies to either save someoneâ??s life or treat it for the better. Ask Gregg, he depends on studies every day in order to sell his product on a daily basis. Let me get to my point. Recent research from a major British medical journal (Maria Xiridou et al., â??The Contributions of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV Infection Among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam,â?ť AIDS 17 (2003): 1029-38) on male same-sex relationships in the Netherlands-arguably one of the most gay-friendly cultures in the world (and where same-sex marriage is legal)- indicates gay men have a very difficult time living by the values of marriage. This study found that, on average, steady homosexual relationships in the city of Amsterdam last only 1.5 years. The study also found that gay men in steady relationships there have an average of eight partners a year OUTSIDE of their current relationships. 1. How is that healthy for children to see? And remember the attitude of the first couple, Jonathan Yarbrough and Cody Rogahn, in line on May 17th, 2004 to get a same-sex marriage license in Provincetown, MA:
Jonathan Yarbrough, a bisexual, said to the press just before his wedding:
â??I think itâ??s possible to love more than one person and have more than one partnerâ?¦In our case, we have an open marriage.â?ť
So what if this couple wanted to expand their open marriage to include some of these other people they plan to love? How would we-how could we-say no? What does this in turn do to our economy? Do we pay benefits to everyone who gets a civil union certificate or marriage license who is gay? (or maybe even straight co-workers who jump on the band- wagon to receive benefits at work?). Were do we stop the madness?
Contrast the Netherlands study with the fact that 67% of first marriages in the United States last ten years, and more than three-quarters of heterosexual married couples report being faithful to their wedding vows. (Advance Data, National Center for Health Statistics, May 31, 2001, p. 1, The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States, p. 216).
Some same-sex marriage advocates explain that if homosexuals had the social pull of marriage to keep them monogamous like heterosexuals do, then they would be more monogamous like heterosexuals. Do not use the argument that not all heterosexual marriages stay monogamous. People do cheat and â??swingâ??, but that is not the norm when married. Those are the select few, like the homosexual community, who make a bad name for traditional marriage.
No, opening marriage to people who simply want the legal benefits it provides and little else does not strengthen marriage. Nor does it benefit the children who suffer as a result of the many relationships which brings the confusion of â??who are my real parents? There are so many people coming and going in my household.â?? This is the same case for the â??no fault divorceâ?? which was another social experiment our nation decided to ponder upon 30 years ago. Look at what a massive failure that experiment has become and how the evidence of failure is overwhelming:
â?¦It has created terrible hardships for children. It has generated poverty within families. It has burdened us with unsupportable social cost. It has failed to deliver on its promise of greater adult happiness and better relationships between men and womenâ?¦Too many children are angry, sad, and neglected. (Marriage in America: A report to the Nation, Council on Families in America. Institute for American Values, 1995, http://www.americanvalues.org/html/r-marriage_in_america.html. (underscores _ between Marriage_in_America)
I hope this makes sense. I do not plan to change your viewpoint, I just want to make sure that you and everyone out there knows the other sides facts. I looked at the website you brought to my attention. Some interesting points.
Thanks,
Michael
November 1st, 2005 at 10:19 pm
Michael,
Thanks for the very thoughtful post. You make very good points about the importance of research studies. I guess the problem I have with using them in your arguement against gay marriage is the application. Do they really apply?
For example, the study you cited above may have spot on data in it for the people they studied. That is one thing. The data, analytics, etc were highly accurate. I’ll grant you that. But let’s be real about some other factors, like the fact the study took its sample from a pool of people living in Amsterdam, one of the least friendly cities imaginable to monogomy, fidelity and family. Why should that study apply to this discussion? I’m not a scientist or medical professional, but common sense tells me that is not exactly a fair sample for what we are talking about here.
Everything you say about swinging, cheating, etc applies to heteros, as you said. I disagree with when you said, “Those are the select few”. I think it is far more than a select few, as far as cheating goes. Which only proves once again that it is the content of one’s character that counts.
There are virtually no gay marriages in the US now. How many suffering, depressed, confused children raised by one or both of their heterosexual parents are out there tonight? There are millions. They are not the creation of gay parents, but in many cases, bad parents. As a conservative I have to believe that your actions and conduct are how you should be judged. I simply don’t think sexual preference is a disqualification from being able to be a good parent. I say that as a happily married father of young children.
I do respect your opinion and obvious concern for kids, families and traditional values.
Kevin
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